A recent forum thread got me thinking about this topic. I used to think about it a lot and had a lot of trepidation concerning being seen as a nice guy. I really was the quintessential AFC nice guy. I once met a woman I had known for a bit and we started flirting with each other. She mentioned she couldn’t sleep with me because of some reason or another. I realize now this was just to allow herself to be clear she wasn’t desperate. She wanted to sleep with me. I ended up going back to her place, her friends left us alone, and I sat on the couch all night talking with her till five am afraid to even touch her because I wouldn’t want to cross any lines. She wanted to sleep with me. It is completely clear to me now. I was too much of a nice guy, read: wimp, to make a move.
So I quickly started to tell women I was an asshole, so I wouldn’t be put in the friend zone or be confused as a “Nice Guy”. I even came up with this routine about the nice guy vs. asshole. Nice guys were wimps, assholes had no respect, and I was a reformed nice guy that is now a respectful asshole. It worked for me for the most part. I could then stand up to a woman and not supplicate. I even had an excuse if she pressed it; I’m just an asshole. It was a bit of a disqualification as well.
After a while I learned that I was not going to cater to the whims of females. I would do things only because I truly wanted to do them. I became confident in standing up to women when they were trying to manipulate me into things. That is a very attractive thing to a woman; when you can stand up for yourself against them. Women are driven to emasculate men, but they do so always hoping you will stand up for yourself. If not, they get what they want anyway, although their attraction to you is a lot less.
Eventually I stopped worrying about being an asshole and I turned back into a nice guy. Most women I meet say how much of a nice guy I am. There is something different though. The difference is I can be a nice guy as long as I stand up for myself and know what I want. I am respectful and do numerous things for the women I am dating. I am just confident in making sure there is always an equal exchange of energy into the relationship. I don’t hold her on a pedestal and I knock myself off the pedestals she puts me on.
So I guess you can be a nice guy. What you don’t want to be is an insecure wimp. Stand up for yourself and make sure there is an equal exchange in all of your interactions. Be confident and clear in your interactions and you won’t be the wimpy nice guy.
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14 comments:
Dear SHH!
Thank you very much for your insight. I have a question concerning the women that said she wouldn't want sleep with you, but you guessed she do wanted that (but wouldn't tell to not seem desperate). How do you know that? How do you know when a women REALLY doesn't want to sleep with you & just talk, or when she's just saying that to not seem desperate? If you make a wrong guess, she can freak out, and destroy the rapport you're having... no? (to me it seems that, if you wouldn't listen to her objection and go on with sexual tension & stuff, she would think you're being ungenuine, and that the chat you both had was really just a way to get into her pants)
Thanks a lot dude, your blog rocks my world!
here are thoughts from an anonymous: my guess would be to test the waters: escalate a little bit, see if she bites, rinse and repeat. tell her you'd like to do x to her and watch her reaction.
The nice guy has never had experience doing this [although the girl doesn't know this. The girl just thinks guys are guys and it'll happen] and the girl just needs to show some ASD, and the guy will escalate.
i think it's an animal instinct thing that just takes over that the man initiates and she'll submit, and most likely gained only from experience.
If you think about it, the natural will go for it because it's in his primal drive. he will not be denied. He wants it. The beta guy overthinks it and blows it basically because he doesn't want it. It's the same with anything in life. If you want something, you will go out and get it. If you don't get something, maybe it's because you didn't want it enough.
It boils down to wanting it so bad that fear of being rejected doesn't even enter the picture. Ok, that 's my 2 cents...
Dan, brother, social burrito,
Have you changed your 'I'm seeing other people but I still want to see you.' speech at all since you've progressed? Does it still happen at the same time?
I'm wondering how you work that in. Also, when do you like to talk about relationships during an interaction? Before or after SOI, and what would be the differences in how you discuss it based upon where you are in the escalation?
Dymn.
Thanks for the awesome post. I posted the topic: Charismatic Person vs. Nice Friendly Guy onn the forum. I am still having confusions though. it is still not clear to me, but soon, it will be.
Right now, I have concluded that I can be a nice guy as long as I am not needy and seeking for approval. I'll stand up for my beliefs and be proud for who I am.
Thanks again for sharing this topic.
If you have any more insights and comments about this topic, I would genuinely appreciate it if you post here or/and in the forum.
Thanks. You rock!
- revmark
"I would do things only because I truly wanted to do them. I became confident in standing up to women when they were trying to manipulate me into things. That is a very attractive thing to a woman; when you can stand up for yourself against them. Women are driven to emasculate men, but they do so always hoping you will stand up for yourself. "
This is great.
David Schnarch, rebel sex and marriage therapist and the one of the best writers ever about Passionate Marriage (the name of one of his books) has a great concept in his writing called Differentiation. It is exactly what you describe here Dan--being able to articulate your own throughts and wants while in relation to someone else.
Really nicely put. This is the heart of sustaining attraction: when someone grows more into themselves in the relationship, and stands up for that new self.
- Jason_LosAngeles
We are guys, we say what we mean. We are confused by women because everything they say often has different meanings and sub-meanings. This will be the problem with relationships till we learn telepathy somewhere off in the future with flying cars and tractor beams.
I listen when someone says they don't want sex. But if I do, then i use that as a sexual barrier now. A Sexual barrier is great because it throws out an idea of what the goal is, but dosen't make her commit to an answer, yes or no. More on this in future blogs
Looking for a reaction is always bad. That is approval seeking. Calibration is one thing, that is just observing the situation. DON"T do kino or escalation to see how she will react. That is a sure way to come off needy.
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Dymn, i think the earlier the better i mention i'm dating different people. I just got a girlfriend so i don't have that talk much anymore. When i was using it i brought it up when we talked about relationship status.
Revmark; I'll do a blog on supplication sometime in the next few weeks.
Thank you all very much for your insights, you guys are incredible!
To quote SHH: " DON"T do kino or escalation to see how she will react. That is a sure way to come off needy. "
I presume you mean kino/escalation is a sort of REWARD. But how do you react then, when she gives a really bad response, or starts to really become completely ignorant?
SHH, could you talk more about 'reaction-seeking?'
i understand what the frame should be, but i've not underestood the specific bodylanguage-type cues that give away that one is reaction-seeking.
thanks, i totally love your blog!
"I listen when someone says they don't want sex. But if I do [want sex], then i use that [their reluctance?] as a sexual barrier now."
Yeah I meant to query this when you said you were going to do it to HB Cowboyboots.
Does it work?
See in one version of the JM mannual he says never use her as a sexual barrier, always you or something in the environment. And using her 'hang ups'/resistance(?) seems like recrimination. essentially:
"I'd really like to run my tongue up the inside of your thigh right now, but I can't cos' your being a prude"?
As I understand it, it seems like your putting pressure on her to have sex, rather than getting her horny. Does that work?
Looking forward to your clarification
xxx Goose.
There are no bad responses. If she is being ignorant you haven't delved deep enough. It is always in how you handle the response. Relate to the emotions she is feeling. There is more here than i can easily explain, it covers a lot of concepts. Go back to the first three minutes post for clarification on getting her to open up.
Kino should be used as a reward, exactly.
yoyo: Your looking to solve the problem by fixing the symptoms. Not being approval seeking is something that takes time. Do a lot of Disqualifying and Agreeing instead of being defensive and you will start to change that. Your body language will follow. Without seeing your body language in person i don't know what specifics you are doing. That is what a bootcamp is really great at, individualizing the method for you and getting you past your conscious and unconscious sticking points.
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I don't use her resistance as a barrier. You never make the barriers about her. I do somthing like "you're right, we shouldn't. If we did i don't know how you would be able to stand me running my fingers down between your breasts tracing the form and shape of your body. Lightly carressing your skin till i reached down inside your pants and started touching your thighs, etc...." The sexual barrier is "your right WE shouldn't"
As for HB Cowboyboots she was always so busy i barely saw her to even try to get past that.
Hi Dan,
I'm probably doing something wrong with sexual tension, but to me and the girl i'm trying it on, it comes over like i'm using "manipulation". Last time i used it she said "you're just trying to manipulate me". Does this mean i'm doing something wrong? It always seems, when i'm using ST, like i'm using some kind of trick and that it's clear i'm using some kind of manipulation trick on her. Do you think i'm doing something wrong, or is this just a phaze in internalizing the use of ST?
thank you so much in advance dude, keep on blogging!
Dan,
You hit the nail on the head! Women want men who are capable of being strong. Ayn Rand explained it perfectly in Atlas Shrugged. I think somewhere deep within, most women want a man to whom she can submit but finding one strong enough and worthy enough is a challenge.
"I'm probably doing something wrong with sexual tension, but to me and the girl i'm trying it on, it comes over like i'm using "manipulation". Last time i used it she said "you're just trying to manipulate me". Does this mean i'm doing something wrong? It always seems, when i'm using ST, like i'm using some kind of trick and that it's clear i'm using some kind of manipulation trick on her."
Well you are maniulating her, just unlike NLP its blatant.
1. J. says when they criticise you always agree. So your response should be 'yep, totally'. She is throwing up another barrier between you, J.s say barriers make them comfortable, so you must let her keep it. In fact on a later high point you could SOI again and make the barrier 'but I can't because I'm too manipulative'.
2. SHH seems to favour dropping sexual scene SOIs in response to the shit-test 'I'm not sleeping with you, you know', this obviously makes it seem less manipulative more natural. In the manual J. implies this is the best way, but alas, the opportunity is not reliable. Although maybe if you say your a pickup instructor, that would reliably get the shit-test.
3. In the example in the book the barrier J. uses is soemthing like 'but I can't with all these mediteranians around'. He could have said 'I can't with all these people around' but he said 'mediterians' because it makes the statment ridiculous and so more fun. Your SOIs are always gonna be blatant manipulation, if you can add some silly detail to the barrier to make them fun as well, that should help prevent the 'your manipulating me' shit test. Its more jiu-jitsu too.
5. Don't be discouraged, J. said in his book his gimmick SOI failed more than once to win a kiss.
Goose.
Thanks a lot Goose, that clears up some things for me!
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