“Why is it that every woman I meet has a boyfriend? This is what I thought all through college and beyond. I have always been up on my high horse about my own morality since I was a kid, and I still have a bit of self-righteousness even today. I grew up Mormon and left the church when I was twelve, a year after my mother left. As a child the idea that sex was only for married people was drilled into my head. I quickly as a man wanting sex compromised, and said I would have sex only when I was in love. My self imposed morality kept me a virgin till I was twenty-three. I ended up losing that philosophy along with my virginity to a good friend. The other long held moral stance I would soon give up was never go after women with boyfriends. That also added to why I was a virgin for so long.
When in college I can’t tell you how many women I met that had boyfriends of all different levels. One woman I distinctly remember was in a long distance relationship. So I kept my distance even though I was quite infatuated by her. The interesting thing was while I held my distance, another guy she met came in, didn’t care she had a boyfriend and pursued her anyway; she quickly dumped her long distance boyfriend for him. I went to their wedding several years ago. Over and over this happened to me till I gave up and said I don’t give a fuck and that is their problem not mine. That is until I met a wonderful woman who was engaged. I’ll always remember making love to her with that giant engagement ring on her finger. She did end up breaking off the engagement for me however the resulting stress made her shut down, and subsequently shut off towards me. We did not last long.
So from one extreme to the other I have realized where I want to be. My line is a woman who is engaged. I don’t cross it. Sadly married women and engaged women are sometimes the first to initiate flirtation with the intent to cheat on their partners. I don’t let myself cross that line anymore. If you do, that is your choice, however I wouldn’t encourage it.
What I have realized is almost every woman who is worth it has a boyfriend; if she doesn’t she will soon. That creates a dilemma for my ridiculous moral standards. At least it did. Now that I have been studying women and interactions for a while, I realize women have different types of boyfriends. One of my fellow instructors actually had a women call hers a “placeholder boyfriend”. The fact is women place a lot of value about themselves on having a boyfriend. Most, if at all dissatisfied, are more than willing to upgrade.
The question is how do you deal with this and all these women who have boyfriends? The key is first to not have an agenda. When a woman says she has a boyfriend, be interested in that. I personally love to talk about relationships. If she has the perfect boyfriend and relationship, I want to know all about it. I want to know how she got it and how she keeps it perfect. However, women rarely have the “perfect” relationship. If you become uninterested when she says she has a boyfriend then it clearly shows you have an agenda. If you build him up you are actually building her up as well. Women identify their relationships as a quality of themselves. She chose him after all. If you criticize her choice of boyfriend, it appears to her that you don’t approve of who she is and what her choices are. However if you build him up, she will gladly show you the cracks in her relationship. Almost as if she is disqualifying herself, (which women do so naturally) she will tell you about the cracks in her relationship. Your job is simply to listen, and relate by showing the cracks in your relationships, present, and past. Once the cracks have been identified and related to, move on as if she was single however be calibrated and aware by her choosing you over her boyfriend there will be hesitation and barriers. Always continue to escalate but don’t force her. Use sexual barriers as a roadmap of where you want to go. Let her come to you though.
Personally I now love meeting girls with boyfriends. If they are happy, they have a drive to live vicariously through their single girlfriends, and will want to hook you up. If they are not happy, they will keep up the appearances of their relationship while secretly plotting to make the switch to you.
Being genuinely interested in women for who they are without an agenda is the quickest way for them to start creating an agenda to obtain you!
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17 comments:
I like this post a lot, the problem comes up often for me. I have a few questions...
There are several girls with boyfriends I am interested in, and I am fine with pursuing them, but I am not interested in them to the point where I want to start a relationship with them. More like just want to get in her pants. What are your thoughts on breaking up a relationship just to hookup?
I understand that good relationships start from having no agenda, just some good hooking up and hanging out, but I'd feel horrible ruining a relationship just so I can get some pussy.
Also, I think 'building up her boyfriend' is a great way to show you have no agenda and are still interested, but what are some other tips you have for getting her to go with you?
the SHH challenge.
You asked the troll to point out holes in the method, well this may not be a hole but it’s something fundamental I have difficulty with. This is long, I’ve tried to give examples to show how I find it difficult, as this might inform a solution.
From the book:
“Here is how you do it. You don't really talk about things. Rather you talk about your experience with things. Shows or travel or spaghetti may be the topic but you are always the subject. That narrows down your responses to your own experience. Then you talk about your experience in a manner that is as low level (feelings, sensations, actions) as possible. That makes it easy for women to relate to you. “
I learned sometime ago that the I perspective is bad, I became one of those ‘well intentioned people’ who uses the God perspective and tries to find interesting things to talk about.
This is a bad example, but I was doing something related yesterday so it comes to mind.
Subject: art-Andy Warhol
I perspective:
the first time I saw his work I found it quite shocking, all these bright primary colours splashed over pictures seemingly from a greasy black and white newspaper. Shocking!
Repeating ‘shocking’, is try hard, when I talk from the I perspective this is something I often end up doing, whilst:
The God perspective gives:
Andy Warhol thought all possible subjects of art held equal merit, from portraits of the president to portraits of soup. He was a rebellious anti-snob, if Warhol’s art was a car it would be a Skoda. Totally without pretension.
I can say more from the God perspective, and what I say is more worthwhile and shows of my intellect (as it is).
I can appreciate the God perspective is drier, but the I-perspective leads to whining.
I let drips of how I really feel about things (the I-perspective) come out to nerdy friends, to fill dead air, but only ever drips, because it is all so whiney, and tedious, and unattractive.
Some examples, talking about my present life activities in the I-perspective:
Salsa.
I am Frustrated with it, we do these really simple moves which all the women get wrong and then we have to repeat these things for weeks and weeks till they get it right, when I did it right the first time. The course will finish and I’ll only know a few moves, not nearly enough to dance to a whole song.
{BTW I look at there face now, thanks :) }
Gym.
During my last trip, this man appears with two kids, I’m resting between sets, I take a 2 minute break for my muscles to recharge with creatine. ‘Whose using this’ the father says, pointing at the bar and scowling at me, I apologised said I’d be finished in a minute and cut my exercise short on the bar, to let them get on. Which annoyed me. But then he and the kids just sat around that area doing stuff for the whole of the rest of the time I was there, so I couldn’t do half the exercises I was planning, which just made me so cross, having gone to all the effort of going there.
Massage.
I really enjoy being massaged but increasingly I’m hating giving women massages, I try really hard to give them good feedback and praise on what they’re doing but I get jarring negativity when I massage them.
3 weeks ago I had a woman complain of having headaches subsequent to my massage but she couldn’t say what I done wrong exactly.
I really love it when my partner squeezes my shoulders, 2 weeks ago this girl sharply told me not to do her shoulders, I think maybe its because she’s very thin and a woman so has less flesh on her shoulders maybe.
Then this week, I was massaging a girls ears, which, on me, I absolutely love, warm fingers rubbing round in delicious circles, but half way through she totally freaked on me, screeching, she then informed the class she had tolerated it for a while but actually she really dislikes it. Great!
I’m coming to be scared of touching women, fearing what God awful reaction I’m going to get now.
Work
A year ago my manager fired for harassment, of a colleague. I was glad, he was an arsehole. Now the company is very busy and the replacement manager has left, so they’ve rehired the arsehole, and his still an arse hole. I said the word ‘summon’ yesterday and saw his face flicker with irritation which made me feel uncomfortable. When a man gets irritated by a word then I don’t think he should be in charge of people, even if he is good at bullying people to the benefit of the business. His an arsehole, life sucks etc. etc. etc.
START AGAIN HERE
And it goes on SHH, if I talk honestly from the I perspective, its one continuous whine. And on the rare occasion I really like something, it leaves me with very little to say about it.
“then you talk about your experience in a manner that is as low level (feelings, sensations, actions) as possible.”
If you do this, talking about how you feel about things, you immediately start reaching for, and talking in trite clichés. Which is avoided by the God perspective; with the God perspective you try to say something interesting and ‘worthwhile’.
“I love finishing 3 good sets of an exercise, after I’ve pushed out those last few reps, with wobbly arms, and dripping sweat, I feel like I’m on cloud nine.”
See!!! really trite statement there. ‘feel like I’m on Cloud nine’ – ug! As soon as you start trying to describe how something feels I always reach for clichés. Is that how the CA gang talks?
So I don’t talk in the I-perspective, I try and find interesting things to talk about (i.e. things I have an opinion/view on and a subject she may have an opinion on), and say something ‘worthwhile’ about the subject from the God perspective.
I DO understand that people will be able to relate to me better if I can talk in the I perspective,
{ “Tiramisu ice cream is the best!”
“I love Tiramisu ice cream.” I totally see the latter is more relatable. }
But the I-perspective just doesn’t seem practical to my life, my examples above are just not attractive.
If you can show me a way to speak about myself in the I perspective, positively, to make Juggler practical, then I’m all for it, as is, the I perspective just isn’t practical to me, it’s a step back into whining, a fundamental flaw in the method, i'm sure many have trouble with.
“When talking with a strange women most guys will habitually use
one of these first two perspectives. That is because those
perspectives feel safer to our subconscious. We have acquired
the habit of keeping OUR unique-self tucked away behind language.“
No, it’s because revealing our true thoughts and feelings (our unique self), leads to a bunch of whining, which is unattractive, so IT IS safer to avoid talking with I s.
Best wishes
Goose.
the SHH challenge.
You asked the troll to point out holes in the method, well this may not be a hole but it’s something fundamental I have difficulty with. This is long, I’ve tried to give examples to show how I find it difficult, as this might inform a solution.
From the book:
“Here is how you do it. You don't really talk about things. Rather you talk about your experience with things. Shows or travel or spaghetti may be the topic but you are always the subject. That narrows down your responses to your own experience. Then you talk about your experience in a manner that is as low level (feelings, sensations, actions) as possible. That makes it easy for women to relate to you. “
I learned sometime ago that the I perspective is bad, I became one of those ‘well intentioned people’ who uses the God perspective and tries to find interesting things to talk about.
This is a bad example, but I was doing something related yesterday so it comes to mind.
Subject: art-Andy Warhol
I perspective:
the first time I saw his work I found it quite shocking, all these bright primary colours splashed over pictures seemingly from a greasy black and white newspaper. Shocking!
Repeating ‘shocking’, is try hard, when I talk from the I perspective this is something I often end up doing, whilst:
The God perspective gives:
Andy Warhol thought all possible subjects of art held equal merit, from portraits of the president to portraits of soup. He was a rebellious anti-snob, if Warhol’s art was a car it would be a Skoda. Totally without pretension.
I can say more from the God perspective, and what I say is more worthwhile and shows of my intellect (as it is).
I can appreciate the God perspective is drier, but the I-perspective leads to whining.
I let drips of how I really feel about things (the I-perspective) come out to nerdy friends, to fill dead air, but only ever drips, because it is all so whiney, and tedious, and unattractive.
Some examples, talking about my present life activities in the I-perspective:
Salsa.
I am Frustrated with it, we do these really simple moves which all the women get wrong and then we have to repeat these things for weeks and weeks till they get it right, when I did it right the first time. The course will finish and I’ll only know a few moves, not nearly enough to dance to a whole song.
{BTW I look at there face now, thanks :) }
Gym.
During my last trip, this man appears with two kids, I’m resting between sets, I take a 2 minute break for my muscles to recharge with creatine. ‘Whose using this’ the father says, pointing at the bar and scowling at me, I apologised said I’d be finished in a minute and cut my exercise short on the bar, to let them get on. Which annoyed me. But then he and the kids just sat around that area doing stuff for the whole of the rest of the time I was there, so I couldn’t do half the exercises I was planning, which just made me so cross, having gone to all the effort of going there.
Massage.
I really enjoy being massaged but increasingly I’m hating giving women massages, I try really hard to give them good feedback and praise on what they’re doing but I get jarring negativity when I massage them.
3 weeks ago I had a woman complain of having headaches subsequent to my massage but she couldn’t say what I done wrong exactly.
I really love it when my partner squeezes my shoulders, 2 weeks ago this girl sharply told me not to do her shoulders, I think maybe its because she’s very thin and a woman so has less flesh on her shoulders maybe.
Then this week, I was massaging a girls ears, which, on me, I absolutely love, warm fingers rubbing round in delicious circles, but half way through she totally freaked on me, screeching, she then informed the class she had tolerated it for a while but actually she really dislikes it. Great!
I’m coming to be scared of touching women, fearing what God awful reaction I’m going to get now.
Work
A year ago my manager fired for harassment, of a colleague. I was glad, he was an arsehole. Now the company is very busy and the replacement manager has left, so they’ve rehired the arsehole, and his still an arse hole. I said the word ‘summon’ yesterday and saw his face flicker with irritation which made me feel uncomfortable. When a man gets irritated by a word then I don’t think he should be in charge of people, even if he is good at bullying people to the benefit of the business. His an arsehole, life sucks etc. etc. etc.
START AGAIN HERE
And it goes on SHH, if I talk honestly from the I perspective, its one continuous whine. And on the rare occasion I really like something, it leaves me with very little to say about it.
“then you talk about your experience in a manner that is as low level (feelings, sensations, actions) as possible.”
If you do this, talking about how you feel about things, you immediately start reaching for, and talking in trite clichés. Which is avoided by the God perspective; with the God perspective you try to say something interesting and ‘worthwhile’.
“I love finishing 3 good sets of an exercise, after I’ve pushed out those last few reps, with wobbly arms, and dripping sweat, I feel like I’m on cloud nine.”
See!!! really trite statement there. ‘feel like I’m on Cloud nine’ – ug! As soon as you start trying to describe how something feels I always reach for clichés. Is that how the CA gang talks?
So I don’t talk in the I-perspective, I try and find interesting things to talk about (i.e. things I have an opinion/view on and a subject she may have an opinion on), and say something ‘worthwhile’ about the subject from the God perspective.
I DO understand that people will be able to relate to me better if I can talk in the I perspective,
{ “Tiramisu ice cream is the best!”
“I love Tiramisu ice cream.” I totally see the latter is more relatable. }
But the I-perspective just doesn’t seem practical to my life, my examples above are just not attractive.
If you can show me a way to speak about myself in the I perspective, positively, to make Juggler practical, then I’m all for it, as is, the I perspective just isn’t practical to me, it’s a step back into whining, a fundamental flaw in the method, i'm sure many have trouble with.
“When talking with a strange women most guys will habitually use
one of these first two perspectives. That is because those
perspectives feel safer to our subconscious. We have acquired
the habit of keeping OUR unique-self tucked away behind language.“
No, it’s because revealing our true thoughts and feelings (our unique self), leads to a bunch of whining, which is unattractive, so IT IS safer to avoid talking with I s.
Best wishes
Goose.
Goose, it's not that hard.
I LIKE THAT Andy Warhol TREATED ALL SUBJECTS EQUALLY from portraits of the president to portraits of soup. THERE'S SOMETHING SO DORKY ABOUT THAT. IT'S LIKE HAVING A FRIEND WHO DRAWS REALLY GOOD DOING ART JUST FOR ME. I LOOK AT HIS WORK AND GET IT AND NOT FEEL STUPID, UNLIKE WHEN I LOOK AT PICASSO OR READ SHH's BLOG =P
It feels like you're trying to hard. Think of it as rainstorming out loud and don't be ashamed of anything you say. Be proud of it, even if it's whiny. If the girl can relate, it prolongs the interaction allowing you to attract.
Nice post. I might also draw a line if if a girl has been living with her boyfriend for several years and they are a long-term couple. I mean, today often people choose to live together long term as an alternative to marriage, and I wouldn't want to break up a five-year common-law marriage just because they didn't exchange rings.
Goose, I think you are taking the "I" perspective to the extreme. When you want to describe things in interesting ways, you can definitely use the god perspective. You don't have to turn EVERY sentence into an "I + verb" sentence structure.
Also, your bias on the "I" perspective being whiney is just based on your own experience. I'm pretty sure CA instructors try to speak with positivity.
This is so true. i just had an interesting and wonderful converstation with a pretty cute woman a while ago. i had no agenda at all just wanted to find out about her and make a fun convo and connection(was not interested in a sexual relationship). We were in trance and deeply connected. She mentioned that she has a boyfriend and i respected that but i still rewarded her that she has a good boyfriend who takes care of her...etc. she responded well. at the end of the converstation, i wasn't even thinking of getting her no. but she just asked for my phone no. right on the spot (too bad i didn't have cellphone at that time and i couldn't get hers). and in fact, suprisingly i remembered i didn't even SOI her. hmmm i still think that i need to practice SOI though.
thanks for the insights, Dan!
- revmark
Hi Dan,
Its amazing how you ALWAYS seem to post about the EXACT sticiking points Im having at the time. Thanks and keep it up!
Jake (Easievibe)
Hey Dan, I really like this post. It's very eye-opening for me. Especially the "placeholder boyfriend" part. Honestly, all of your posts have been very interesting and insightful to me, but posts like this are my favorites.
I have a relationships question too. There are a few girls at my school that I would really like to have an intimate relationship with. I know I could escalate with any of them, however I feel that if I were to it would automatically mean that we were in a monogamous relationship and I couldn't flirt with anyone else. I know, this sounds silly, but it's my busted frame that I'm looking to fix and I want to be completely honest. It sounds even more ridiculous considering that at my age it would be pretty standard to fool around. Still, many people I know are in LTR's but as of right now that's not what I'm looking for.
So here's my predicament. I have options, I want to get some action, I want to keep options open, and I don't want to be in a single LTR. But I'm afraid that a) the only way these girls would become intimate with me would be in a LTR... leading to b) if I were to become intimate with one of them I would be bound to a LTR.
Ok... well I hope you guys can give me some advice on this. Hopefully I explained my situation clearly, and maybe even some of you can relate to it. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this Dan! I really like the way you communicate your knowledge of relationships. Thanks in advance guys!
Goose. In all of your examples you are tending towards negative emotions in the I perspective. Always wrap it up and put a positive spin if you are going to do that. Or just use positive emotions and it won't ever sound like whining.
Ex:
I am so excited about being out here in Boston visiting my Mom. It is so nice being home, I can't get over that feeling of comfort and ease I have when i am back in the place I grew up at, with every road and house bringing me to an incredibly nostalgic state of surrealism. Even seeing my breath in the crisp New England air at night floods me with memories of growing up here.
RJ good post idea. Stay Tuned.
Hi Dan,
I've been itching to post a comment here for ages and have finally read your blog from beginning to end! How fitting that your most recent post should make me realise something about myself!
I'm that guy who goes out hoping to meet and talk to hot women... But by then I've already set my agenda! I see a girl talking to a guy or one with a ring on her wedding finger and I walk the other way. Or worse, they reveal their 'taken' relationship status mid conversation and I loose interest.
Anyway, I just wanted to post and say that reading your blog has been a real inspiration to me and I'm now looking forward to the London CA seminar in March next year - fancy another trip to the UK ;)
Look forward to the next entry,
Kyser
I think it's simple.
Don't use "I" perspective with a negative emotion you'd come out as jerk. Goose took it too far.
Use the I perspective with everything. If I need sympathy or to vent or anything in my life, I perspective will be more effective for me. If i speak about something negative then i always end on a positive.
"I have the worst luck with my car. I have had it towed, broken into, dented, and crashed into it. It felt just awful, I can't look at my car without the feeling of frustration. However It is going to the shop while I am away and I know my luck will be different after it gets a bit of a face lift."
A simple optomistic sentence on the end of any negative statement can soften it.
goose. If everything that comes out of your brain when talking about yourself and your life contains negative emotions, maybe there's something wrong with the way you're living or the way you think about things.
re: the dad and 2 kids in the gym. If you still wanted the machine, SAY YOU HAVEN'T FINISHED AND THEY HAVE TO WAIT.
re: andy warhole. If you don't like his art, start talking about art you do like. don't start reciting facts. You sound like a freakin tour guide.
re: Salsa. If you don't like dancing with the beginners, go to a more advanced class.
re: massage. Either take a course on massage (you can scam a 2 day course for free pretending you want to become a 3 minute angel. get the training then quit), or stop giving massages. If the girls aren't enjoying them and you're getting frustrated, why keep doing it?
re: work. You care too much what your manager thinks. Who cares if he gets pissed cuz you say 'summon'. Unless he fires you, it has no effect on you. If you really don't like your job, find a better one.
Your life (as you tell it from the I perspective) is really quite entertaining in a 'george costanza' kind of way. But it does hint at deeper problems in your life.
Be happy with who you are and your life and you'll never have to worry about hiding behind the 'god' perspective again...
davich
The question is: How do you reconcile "not having an agenda" with being upfront about your intimate interest and SOI-ing? Do you pretend you don't have an intimate interest? I guess I'm a bit confused. If you're attracted to a woman and you appreciate her unique qualities, doesn't that automatically give you an agenda, or at least a hope?
If a woman has a boyfriend, do I at least express romantic interest, if not overtly sexual interest?
You have it right, more than you know.
"If you're attracted to a woman and you appreciate her unique qualities, doesn't that automatically give you an agenda, or at least a hope? "
Yes, once she has earned your sexual interest by revealing things that you find interesting about her you will then begin to start escalating on a more sexual level. What keeps you from having too much agenda is knowing that you still don't know her that well. At any time she might reveal something that would make her not attractive to you sexually.
For example i got a number from a girl last month that i liked quite a bit. I was excited to set up a date with her and escalate more. However right at the end of the interaction she made fun of a girl who was overweight. That immediately made me not want to be with her nor even call her again. Over and over these things happen so it reminds me she has to earn my sexual interest, i don't give it away to just anyone.
I still SOI girls with boyfriends. In fact i still escalate and do everything i normally do. However because i know, i am more discreet around friends etc. This one just takes a bit of calibration.
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