Recently I was thinking back over the many interactions I have had re-assessing what has been successful and what has not. I actually started thinking back to HBCowboyBoots and what happened with her. She was intelligent and interesting and I definitely wanted to create something with her. I technically did everything correctly in the method relating and rewarding with lots of disqualification. I thought it was going pretty good actually even though she was not exactly like most women I’ve met. While I won’t take complete credit for it falling apart I identified one thing I was doing very wrong. I realize this was where I make most of my critical mistakes. I had an agenda with her.
When I meet a really incredible woman I begin to have an agenda. Of course I want it to go well and so it makes sense why I have an agenda. The problem is even evident in the first sentence, “When I meet a really incredible woman.” How do I know she is an incredible woman? The problem is that I see she meets some of my internal qualifications for the type of woman I want to be with and I assume she meets the rest of them. The fact is I really don’t know this woman yet. I don’t care if she is a Nobel Prize winner, if she likes to snap the heads off of cute furry animals in secret I don’t want to be with her. I fall into the trap that many guys fall into. I start putting her on a pedestal once I have pre-qualified her in my head. Once she is pre-qualified she enters my fast track to LTR road and my agenda gets typed out in triplicate and submitted to all parts of my game.
Looking at some of my more successful interactions where a woman puts ME on her fast track to LTR, I didn’t have an agenda. I spent my time getting to know her and never put her on a pedestal. I however did begin to really strongly appreciate who she was as a person. The more depth I drew out of her the more I was attracted to her yet I was ok with letting things progress without an agenda. These interactions I also never lost my frame of wanting to find out who she was before jumping ahead of myself. They not only were more fun and playful but they also escalated quicker.
So from here on out I invite you to join me on a new frame. I must get to know every woman I meet much deeper before creating an agenda. I will constantly be checking everyone’s pockets for furry animal parts and even if don’t find them I’ll constantly be on the look out for skeletons in closets. This will help me remember that no one is perfect and I have to get to know her much better before I decide what my agenda is.
The great result of this is, that women begin to get a sense from me that I have options. I am not in that “I must have her” mode. What really scares women the most is when they sense that “ I want you, I must have you” in guys. It creates a very instinctual predator/prey response that makes her want to run. Women sense your agenda before you even know you have one. Drop your agenda and remember everyone has skeletons in their closet and no one is perfect. No matter how attractive she is she might just have some dark secrets.
When you can learn to drop your agenda with all people they will begin to feel more comfortable around you and know your being genuine.
23 comments:
Great Post SHH!
I have done this so many times it is sickening. I am so glad you posted on this. I was starting to think I was the only one doing this. I get so caught up to want to have things happen so fast, that I seem to push girls away. Which just makes me that more anxious, that the cycle just feeds on itself until what could have been a good relationship, ends because of this need to be in a relationship mode.
Smack
I think you've hit upon the blight of my interactions. I am always trying to make things work out through force and determination. I set a goal, and I pursue it, so naturally there will be an agenda. I pursue women as though they were a rare item on eBay. I want them, and sadly enough, a lot of times I want them purely because they look good. I get so intently focused on just obtaining them it becomes this frenzied chase. And because of that, that warm, endearing vibe I have whenever I'm genuine is lost. And that is the side of me that everyone likes more.
Pure gold.
Thx
This is Catch-22. Indeed, my best interactions are generally the ones where I'm agenda-free. When I give a real, genuine SOI because she really did do something to attract me, that SOI is effective. I think we can all agree that an agenda-free, outcome-nondependent approach is best and you describe that well.
But I don't consider useful to say "don't have an agenda until you've gotten to know her." It's not even enough to remind myself that she might have just blown an entire minor league hockey team. I am a dude, I am attracted to women primarily based on looks when I first see them and I don't really want to sleep with girls I consider ugly. To be agenda-free all the time, I'd probably have to lose my eyesight (so that looks don't matter) or accumulate a sultanesque harem (so that I truly could care less if I take her home).
If I see a hot girl across the room, I think "man I'd like to take her home." Once that's happened, the best I can do, once I've approached, is not let that agenda come across.
Thanks for this post, Dan. I've been in a funk recently and now I realize that a big cause of it was my clinging to an agenda.
I'll take up your offer on the new frame! :)
Beautiful post, but for us begginers, I think not having an agenda is pretty hard. Like trying to ignore a girls beauty, when a big part of why I approached was because how her long hair stopped just before it got to her low cut jeans.
funny, I JUST experienced this in a very recent interaction. It made the process of 'nexting' that much harder, because now that I'm much less interested than I thought I was (after getting to know her better), I've already shot myself in the foot and brought her hopes way up with my 'agenda'.
Now, instead of thinking to herself: "oh well, no big deal, it was fun while it lasted," she's been pestering mutual friends with questions as to "why [I'm] suddenly so cold and seemed to be backing away so fast," etc.
This is a very negative reaction, and reeks of being labeled a 'player' -something I can't stand.
-Harbinger
Hey there SHH- I really liked this post. But what you say in this post seems to contradict Juggler's "Set your expectations Early" thing (e.g. with the lipgloss, etc.)
What do you think about this? Won't it be "too late" to show sexual expectations if you've been screening for too long?
What about the opposite?
I'm taking Salsa lessons and there a couple of cuties and a shed load of OAPs, who I have partnered with thus far.
I end up looking at their feet, afraid of looking at them at this might suggest an adgenda. (!!!)
This is fucked up.
But I really am not sure what to do.
I feel if I start staring deep into their eyes it will be over-compensation and my discomfort will be revealed as being about them (and not anxiety about the steps).
And women have these prominents chest, even the fanciable ones, you can't safely look anywhere. I feel so gauche and unnatural.
I can't stare at their feet indefinitely. Guidance appreciated.
I'm not sure what your refering to with the lipgloss thing. And I have no idea what an OAP is.. You'll have to forgive me for not being up on community lingo, i was never good at memorizing acronyms. Hell I have trouble with remembering what SOI means ;)
If i see a pretty girl my first agenda is to find out something interesting about her so i can see if i start to like her. Then when she shows me that i show my sexual interest. I show sexual interest very early. But i do it when she has earned it.
I am dating a girl right now i really like but she definitly puts me on a pedestal and it is like the tables have turned. She compliments me on things a lot and sometimes i wonder if she actually sees who i really am or am i just an image of a great guy in her mind. I try to disqualify a lot but sometimes i wonder if she is too interested. That is because i think she has a bit of an agenda and doesn't quite know me well enough to have fallen as hard for me as i think she has. That makes me feel a bit odd. I'm sure i've made other women feel like that too and now i understand that dynamic.
I always have goals that i want to take an interaction to, but the difference is i am unattatched to those goals. Things can change. Of course when i see a pretty girl and go talk to her i want in her pants. But i first want to find out if there is anything more to her. I just assume after we talk we'll hook up and so i want to know if she is worth seeing on a continual basis or just for a night.
As for where to look, where do you look at your friends who are girls? look them in the eyes, not deeply but just comfortably normal. A quick glance at their breasts is expected, why else would they wear a low cut dress. Just make sure you look them in the eyes when talking to them. Don't talk to people staring at their feet.
The lip gloss thing he is referring to is Juggler's chapstick routine from the ebook. Juggler gives the example that he learned to set a sexual expectation early on during a date by making a show of putting on the chapstick and saying "in case there is any smooching later".
This would in fact keep the date from being murky and set a sexual expectation early on. So I guess the question is how do you do that while at the same time not have an agenda?
Oh gotcha.. Well basically that is a SOI. We don't teach using that anymore because we would rather you make your intentions clear as a reward for her making an effort. I have expectations that she is going to be sexually attracted to me. However I don't reveal my interest in her until she has made an effort to show her uniqueness.
However i do agree with SOI'ing early so you do show your expectations soon. However if you SOI based on her showing some uniqueness then it make sense why you would be beginning to want to have sex with her.
Nice follow up.
Using experience to look at it from our perspective definitely helps understand why having an agenda can be unattractive if not confusing. E.g. your current date. This reminds me of the need for desirelessness, which I am slowly mastering.
"Women can smell agenda like shit on a shoe"
-Dex (Tao of Steve)
Dan said: "I have expectations that she is going to be sexually attracted to me."
Why is that? Isn't that part of an agenda where you are expecting too much of yourself? This is where things can get confusing for me.
And also: "I show sexual interest very early. But i do it when she has earned it."
This is another thing I am not clear on for SOIs. How early is very early? And also, how unique is unique?
For instance, is this worth an SOI?
ME: "I like your bag, it's hot. How'd you come across that?"
HER: "I like finding interesting types of things, I'm always on a search for stuff that nobody has."
ME: "*SOI*"
I'd reward to that, but is that worthy of an SOI? If not, how much uniqueness is?
Give some examples, please.
"I always have goals that i want to take an interaction to, but the difference is i am unattatched to those goals. Things can change. Of course when i see a pretty girl and go talk to her i want in her pants. But i first want to find out if there is anything more to her. I just assume after we talk we'll hook up and so i want to know if she is worth seeing on a continual basis or just for a night."
So you are saying, when you meet an attractive girl, you are automatically assuming you two will hook up? That is, if it is worth it for you. Could you explain? Maybe you can make a post on assuming attraction.
Hi Dan, it's Tim from NYC (Aug 4-6 BC),
Thank you for this post. Like so many others, I am very guilty of forgetting this important principle. It is an easy trap to fall into -- I have read about scientific surveys that show that on average people unconsiously assign positive character traits, such as intelligence, kindness, and so on, to attractive people just because they are attractive. So it is definitely imperative to make a CONSCIOUS effort to remember the important truth that physical attractiveness alone is not an actual indicator of any other kind of value.
In fact, this is the essence of the Charisma Arts method. This mindset is what makes rewarding on her high points make sense. It is this principle, and a couple of others, that are the difference between being Alpha or not in your execution of the method. For a long time I over rewarded. Not always in terms of actual statements of reward, but in terms of general enthusiasm for the conversation and acceptance of answers that really didn't require that much effort. But this is a fatal mistake. Its desperate interest.
What makes Charisma Arts work is the concept of having expectations. NOT qualifications, which are specific qualities you want a woman to possess in order to be with you, but expectations of what you will accept in an interaction. If you just take whatever non-commital, boring conversation she gives you and treat it like it's gold, that shoes that you have low expectations. You don't expect her to be interesting or to make an effort, you are just there because she's hot.
You need to have high expectations. These are the standards you should have, not qualifications. You need to have the expectation that she will make an effort to contribute to the conversation and only then will you reward her with her interest.
That is key: your INTEREST. For a long time I was confused between a warm and friendly vibe with the relate/reward cycle and INTEREST. Now I realize that I should be friendly to everybody, but only give my interest to those who have earned it.
There is a big concept in the community of Value and Scarcity. People think that they have to make themselves scarce by being cocky and aloof in order to raise their own value. This works fine, however the more important way that the scarcity rule applies is to your own interest in the form of rewarding. It's not that you should make your rewards SCARCE -- you should reward commesurate to her efforts -- but if you make your rewards abundant and reward when she hasn't made an effort to reveal anything unique, then your interest has no intrinsic value.
I had a piano teacher growing up who directed a Jazz band I played in at the local college in my town. I had a bad habit of noodling and playing in between songs at rehearsals. My teacher was always quick to stop me. He said, "Tim, stop doing that. Don't noodle around and play all your stuff in between songs. When you put your hands on the piano, make it MEAN something."
Make your rewards mean something. And to do this you have to have greater expectations than just her being hot. And that is the essence of this post.
Thanks Dan, as always!
--Tim
"For instance, is this worth an SOI?
ME: "I like your bag, it's hot. How'd you come across that?"
HER: "I like finding interesting types of things, I'm always on a search for stuff that nobody has."
ME: "*SOI*"
I'd reward to that, but is that worthy of an SOI? If not, how much uniqueness is?"
yeah I'd like an authoritive answer to that too.
It seems like one of the greatest difficulties - you SOI too readily, then the SOI is impotent as you are seen as desperate; or you wait for something really good - better - and the opportunity may never come.
I agree having a hidden agenda is bad. What would
you say to notion of owning your agenda outloud,
not crasly but in a classy way?
"Realize that what is attractive is your range of human essence. Show all emotions. What you want to be is confident enough to 'think aloud'." -Juggler
"If you're too dumb to notice, then ask her. "Are you giving me any signals that I'm too stupid to pick up on?" They love the honesty. They're not expecting you to be honest with them and as soon as you are, they fall apart. They let go of their defenses and begin to fall for you. If you're talking to her for ten minutes and you can't figure out how to get her into the bedroom, just say, "I've been talking to you for ten minutes and I'm trying to figure out how to get you into the bedroom." They all say they want a spontaneous guy, but if you're spontaneous they become afraid of you. And there are two kinds of respect, fear and admiration. I'll take what I can get."
-DavidX
- Jason_LA
Shortly after doing some phone coaching with Dan and Wayne, I met two LMTRs. I figured, hey, my sexual needs are taken care of, and I really don't have time to see any more women, so why don't I just set out to hunt for a serious girlfriend. I have been agenda boy since that day! This article explains why that hasn't been working.
Some great comments.
On the SOI thing, no i don't think that particular example warrents a SOI from me. It might from someone else but i don't find that sexy. Stop worrying what is correct, instead SOI on something YOU feel is sexy about her. If your worried about not finding anything else interesting enough to SOI on then why would you want to sleep with such a boring person anyway? The reality is that it is your responsibility to uncover and elicit something you find sexy about her. Then when she rewards your eliciting by telling you what her passion that you find sexy is, then you SOI.
SOI when you find something interesting and unique about her that you think is genuinely interesting.
I tend to do that very quickly, within a couple minutes and that is when i SOI.
On 10/6/06, Rish in an email wrote:
> You say, that one must have no agenda when it comes to meeting girls,
> but what about the goal you have in mind and the expectations you
> have for yourself on how soon you want to accomplish them and whether
> or not you would be able to accomplish them?
>
> Lot of times, I would have no agenda while talking to anyone, and the
> interaction is so much fun. But here's the thing:
>
> If you don't have an agenda, how will you accomplish your goals of
> taking things to the next level or what have you?
I always have an idea of where i want to take an interaction. I have goals, the difference is i am in the moment ready to take any detour or route change that comes up. I am not attatched to that goal and am fine with that goal changing.
Charisma is, in my opinion, the fusion of confidence and mystique. It is confidence that makes it possible to actually DO the things Dan describes in this post and in these comments. I'll explain.
I believe there's a paradox here that most of us are seeing pretty clearly: How can I be agenda-free if I did, in fact, approach her because I like pretty girls and DO have the goal of sleeping with them?
Dan's doing a good job here by making a couple key points:
- have goals but be unattached to them
- show sexual interest only when you genuinely have it and they genuinely deserve it
I tend to read this and say "Uh huh. Easier said than done." This is the definition of something you must achieve the hard way, through the positive feedback-loop of confidence-building. It works like this:
1. Learn, intellectually, that you must interact without an agenda.
2. Go out and interact. Notice that you probably have an agenda.
3. Adjust your behavior ("fake it till you make it"). You will notice positive changes, for example you may get a number-close.
4. Riding high on your success, you'll have a bit of real confidence because you have an actual experience that proves you can do it.
5. Interact more and notice you actually ARE less desperate.
In reality, the only way to be truly outcome-independent is to truly have choice, not just appear that you do. Having choice means you get laid, meaning you've done it right before. The trick is getting that ball rolling, but once you do, the confidence builds on itself.
Hi Social Hitchiker,
Sorry to add more to this, since this topic is not really new anymore, but could the following be a good summary of what's been said?
Having no hidden agenda, is keeping the interaction ORGANIC. You have expectations, but they are TRANSPARANT and IN THE MOMENT.
* TRANSPARANT: She may know your intentions at any point. If you're thinking about how to get her into bed and you don't know how, you 'may' say this literally to here, you have nothing to hide.
* ORGANIC / IN THE MOMENT: feelings change. Maybe at 18:00 she made you horny, wanted to hook up with her and you told her exactly that, at 18:20 she says she likes how the milkman makes love to her every thursday and tells you she likes to kill frogs as a hobby. At 18:22 you say her you just want to be just friends at the absolute maximum and are eager to leave the house. At 18:25 She tells you she was just joking. At 18:26 you tell her you adore her sense of humor and pin her to the wall and start making out with her.
People with a hidden agenda stop LISTENING to the other person. They follow mindlessly a scheme they have in mind, whatever the other person has in mind. He decides at octobre 16th on 18:00 he want her to be his future wife, and whatever she does after that moment doesn't matter anymore, she IS going to be his future wife, even if she farts all day from that point and doesn't invest anything. He just 'runs game' on her, whatever she does. She has been put on a secret hidden train to "sex" and the train stops for nothing.
Having no agenda is
a) being honest and able to be totally transparant: a very honest man, honest to both himself as her.
b) being in the momoent and let your interactions organically flow, not like a train driving straighforward to the goal you have in mind at moment X, and which ignores everything.
Pieter
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